Category talk:Weather and climate

This discussion of one or several categories is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Category:Weather and climate

Rename Category:Weather and climate to Category:Atmospheric conditions , as Weather (short-term state of atmospheric conditions) and Climate (long-term collation of atmospheric conditions) are distinct sub-categories. Josh (talk) 22:34, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

• I think the current name is actually clearer, and much more likely for people to find. I would never even consider using the phrase "atmospheric conditions" for anything that wasn't basically short-term (weather) rather than longer-tern (climate). - Jmabel ! talk 23:40, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
  • @Jmabel: Fair enough. This is just a combination of two different categories (Weather and Climate) and thus a violation of the Simplicity and Selectivity Principles, so I would be fine with just deleting it. Is there anything here that isn't just contents of either Weather or Climate? Josh (talk) 00:43, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
    • @Joshbaumgartner: Probably OK to do that. My only concern is that it is currently the only link putting Category:Weather under Category:Climatology. Maybe make that a direct connection? - Jmabel ! talk 01:34, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
      • @Jmabel: Yeah... I think the analagous discipline for Weather is Meteorology, as Climate is to Climatology. These are mashed as parents for Weather and climate but it should probably be decoupled. I say this as a complete layperson, so anyone expert in the field that knows better may correct that interpretation.
      • Also, and this may be beyond the scope of this chat, but connecting sciences with what they study by making them categories of each other seems to be implemented a bit haphazardly. To my mind, I would think that if something is borne of a discipline (e.g. from the field of Aerospace are borne Aircraft) then the discipline should be the parent (e.g. aircraft go under aerospace somewhere). However, in the case of weather and meteorology (or climate and climatology), weather and climate exist regardless of whether we study them or not, so it seems to me weather ought to be the parent from which is borne the study of weather (meteorology) making Meteorology really belong under Weather somewhere. But, maybe I'm getting too philosophical here. Josh (talk) 01:52, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
        • I think it's an OK approach to put the science/discipline at the top of the hierarchy. Yes, there is a difference between science and engineering, but for a lot of fields the two are somewhat muddled together. - Jmabel ! talk 01:58, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
        • With reference to how weather and climate are connected: sometimes the right relationship is {{Cat see also}}. - Jmabel ! talk 01:58, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

           Keep Climate and weather are linked and should be related. Furthermore, if you delete this category you have to do the same for every sub-categories and in every country, continent, etc... present in Category:Weather and climate (ex. the sub-category Category:Weather and climate by country has a multitude of links which each have links into other categories). Pierre cb (talk) 16:26, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

• @Pierre cb: Thank you for that comment. I agree that climate and weather are linked, as are running and jogging, trucks and vans, or food and drink. This is the whole point of the Simplicity and Selectivity Principles, in that we should not create categories simply to combine linked/related items together, but instead that such links are implemented by virtue of having a common parent category (Hierarchical Principle), and facilitated by horizontal navigation aids such as navboxes or {{Cat see also}}. I agree that it would be a bit of work to uncouple these two appropriately, but keeping a wrong in place just because it would take work to fix is not a justification I am ready to sign up for. Instead, we can determine the correct path forward, and it can be implemented over time, at a minimum helping curb the spread of non-optimal practices in the meantime.
• @Jmabel: You are correct about {{Cat see also}}. As for the hierarchy of sciences and their subjects, as I said its a mix out there currently, and I certainly am not prepared to make any proposal to address it on that scale at this time. Anyway, I was digressing from the real topic of this discussion I think. Josh (talk) 02:02, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

  I think your have no idea the work involved with the sub-categories to redistribute. For instance, how will your redistribute categories like Category:Weather and climate maps which has not only sub-categories but each of them is a mix of weather maps and climate maps like Category:Maps of weather and climate of the United States which can be different from other sub-categories? You are engaging yourself in undoing the work of a multitude of users over 20 years : an Herculean task! Pierre cb (talk) 04:52, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

  @Pierre cb: Not undoing the work of others, but building on the work of others. Diffusion is a normal task in categories, and is not undoing anyone's work any more than a relay runner taking the baton to the next point is undoing the work of the team member who passed them the baton. Josh (talk) 22:58, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

  Still, you have no idea of the task. Pierre cb (talk) 23:15, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

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General conclusion to keep a parent category with understanding that Weather and Climate are two different things underneath it. Content should be diffused between them when feasible, but can be retained at the parent level if it depicts both. Name should comply with Commons category policies  and be comprehensive for all contents. Josh (talk) 03:30, 15 November 2023 (UTC)